tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post4535213936037551527..comments2024-03-18T03:14:54.390-07:00Comments on Audio Musings by Sean Olive: The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening TestsDr. Sean Olivehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17909033506833141612noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-72523302051341542082016-01-13T03:28:01.713-08:002016-01-13T03:28:01.713-08:00Great post. I think it is good for visitors. I lik...Great post. I think it is good for visitors. I like this kind of website where has a lot of real information, It proved to be very helpful. Thanks for admin, His creativity, Presentation, Information and all is good.<br /><a href="http://www.ranchosantafehometheater.com/" rel="nofollow">audio speakers</a><br />dsdshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17226597215471377202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-78443700479345256292015-09-14T10:51:34.669-07:002015-09-14T10:51:34.669-07:00friv 1000
friv 4
friv 3
friv 2
friv 1000<a href="http://www.jeux44.com/tag/friv-1000/" rel="nofollow">friv 1000</a><br /><a href="http://www.jeux44.com/tag/friv4/" rel="nofollow">friv 4</a><br /><a href="http://www.jeux44.com/tag/friv-3/" rel="nofollow">friv 3</a><br /><a href="http://www.jeux44.com/tag/friv-20/" rel="nofollow">friv 2</a><br /><a href="http://www.jeux44.com/tag/friv-1000/" rel="nofollow">friv 1000</a>Taita Webhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02583987599539652004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-56510913722873237152014-03-13T00:28:32.971-07:002014-03-13T00:28:32.971-07:00Great article, it's re-ignited my interest in ...Great article, it's re-ignited my interest in quality HiFi, thanks for reminding me that it's about what you can hear and not what people tell you!<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12536894742521732602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-51294383797513416022013-12-15T15:38:34.108-08:002013-12-15T15:38:34.108-08:00I'm not sure I understand you line of thought....I'm not sure I understand you line of thought. Double-blind testing works by removing psychological biases from the test. If you get sensitive, accurate and repeatable sound quality ratings from listeners that can be predicted based on objective measurements that tells me that they do work, when done properly.<br /><br />When people get null results in blind tests either the test is not sensitive enough (untrained listeners, poor test signals) or perhaps the audible differences are below detection threshold. That doesn't prove the blind method is invalid or doesn't work. It just means that the test is not well designed or the differences are below threshold for the subjects.<br /><br />What has been shown is that sighted tests can be manipulated to produce whatever test result you like. People's preferences for audio amplifiers, cables, wine or drugs can be influenced simply by telling them how much it costs -- even when the comparisons are between the exact same test object. <br /><br />My experience is that blind tests are more sensitive to small audible differences than sighted tests. When the non-auditory cues are removed people can focus on the audible differences better and you see more sensitive and repeatable results.<br /><br />That said, I still think it's interesting to study how people perceive audio products under non-laboratory conditions. These are typically single-stimulus tests -- not comparisons among different products -- are less sensitive. Also, adaptation plays a role and over time people probably adapt to the sonic characteristics of the product.<br /><br />Dr. Sean Olivehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17909033506833141612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-52087331893828832202013-10-16T16:17:45.107-07:002013-10-16T16:17:45.107-07:00I linked this post to a Stereophile article here: ...I linked this post to a Stereophile article here: <br />http://www.stereophile.com/content/synergistic-research%E2%80%99s-hft-and-feq-transform-bose-wave-radio?page=2#comment-534357<br /><br />Hope you don't mind.Marshall Habermann-Guthriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03802943088980910800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-29931979741908585052013-10-06T21:27:02.792-07:002013-10-06T21:27:02.792-07:00Why is it that the scientific method has to be app...Why is it that the scientific method has to be applied to the business of making judgements about sound, e.g. using the double blind method, but the double blind method itself is not subjected to these same scientific methods but instead taken on faith? Where has anyone produced proof that the double blind listening test actually works? I have not seen any. It seems to be assumed that it will work. I thought science was supposed to be sceptical of anything that has not been proved.<br />The fact is of course that it can never be proved to work. Since the object of the double blind test is to remove psychological bias, which itself can never be "seen" or examined in any meaningful way, there is no way to know if it works. The fact that during double blind tests people fail to be able to differentiate between different sound sources is taken to indicate that the test works, but this could indicate not that the test really is working by removing psychological bias, as it was designed to do, but that it is removing the subjects abilities to differentiate differences by other unknown effects it is having on the subjects psychological state. In other words the test could be negatively affecting the ability of the subjects to differentiate sound by removing essential visual cues that the human mind requires in order to remember sound sources for comparison.<br />It reminds me of the old joke about a circus trained spider which hears through its legs. The circus trainer gives verbal instructions to the spider to move this way and that, and the spider obeys. The trainer then cuts off the spiders legs and gives the same verbal instructions to move, but of course the legless spider remains still. "See" says the trainer, "cut off its legs and it goes deaf!".<br />I am sure the double blind test does what it claims to do in removing any visual induced bias, but i am equally sure it does a lot more besides, removing essential visual cues which set the mind adrift in a vacuous kind of state that cripples the subjects mental abilities and in effect makes all but the largest and most obviously different sounds sound the same.<br />This situation suits the objective measurements-are-everything brigade who want a test that will prove what they already believe, that people cannot really tell the difference, so for them this is a test sent from heaven. I think the reality is that this is the test from hell.<br />The plain truth is that people listen to sound in there head using their brain, a subjective mental process that will only ever be that. The human mind is not and never will be a laboratory measuring instrument, and the double blind listening test will not and never will turn it into one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-40479081625781826802013-07-04T04:38:30.211-07:002013-07-04T04:38:30.211-07:00What you say is true. I've seen, and still see...What you say is true. I've seen, and still see idiots vouching for a particular brand over the other, no matter what the competitor's offering might be. For example, "Bose is the best!", or "You can't beat JBL in pro audio." What kind of crazy shit is that?<br />I've even seen people taking their brand loyalty to crazy levels, they actually tune themselves to like the sound of their favorite brand's offering, even if they don't like it at the start. Hows that?<br />Unfortunately, the mind game players at these companies know this, they know what their business booms on. Hence rational ideas like yours got discouraged.Nirohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10714604828433338268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-1779893601908186262013-05-21T17:48:38.425-07:002013-05-21T17:48:38.425-07:00Thanks for the link. It's an entertaining talk...Thanks for the link. It's an entertaining talk. Thomas Edison was a master at priming people to believe his phonograph recordings could not be distinguished from a live performance. Dr. Sean Olivehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17909033506833141612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-1276125750444699492013-05-20T06:14:39.257-07:002013-05-20T06:14:39.257-07:00KUDOS for taking a stand and showing there are at ...KUDOS for taking a stand and showing there are at least some actors in the industry that don't want to sell snake oil!<br /><br />I became interested in hi-fi in my early teens, and believe it lead me to take a deeper interest in music than I would otherwise have. Later, I went to university studying microelectronics, and the love affair became a troubled one. I'm no audio engineer, but learned more than enough to make it rather impossible to deny that hi-fi magazines simply HAD to be full of nonsense. When a CD marker pen was given a rave review, I'd had it - anyone who knows how a CD is read will realize that the supposed mechanism of the pen is simply made up! <br /><br />The thing is, most people are ignorant of the many and very well-documented reasons to be sceptical of our own perceptions. Most people have heard of the placebo effect, but not many realize just how powerful it is, nevermind slightly less well-known psychological phenomena such as priming, anchoring, and so on. I think most of us have assumed (I certainly did!) that our senses act pretty much like sensors, giving us raw data that we consciously interpret. But the fact is that perception IS an interpretation - we are all perfectly capable of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and feeling things only because our brains are constructing a coherent experience.<br /><br />Michael Shermer did a TED talk on the topic "why people believe weird things" a few years ago. In it, he does a live demo that I strongly recommend anyone to check out. Here you have a chance to experience for yourself how powerfully priming alters your perception. Shermer plays a recording of Stairway to Heaven in reverse, asking you to listen for "the message". Then he plays it again, SHOWING what you're supposed to hear. The audio is the same, but your perception of the audio will be totally different (unless you know the supposed message from before):<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T_jwq9ph8k#t=09m30s<br /><br />The whole talk is worth watching (11 fast-paced, interesting minutes), but I've linked directly to the priming demo for your convenience.The Polymorphisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12704013141246540417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-84886219214188717922013-04-03T08:08:11.266-07:002013-04-03T08:08:11.266-07:00i like your articles.. very interesting. and i lik...i like your articles.. very interesting. and i like your blog to.. keep posting.. Harga HP Terbaruhttp://www.ponseluler.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-86825143248766113782012-12-31T18:14:12.093-08:002012-12-31T18:14:12.093-08:00Hi Sean
I like your work, you are a pretty sharp ...Hi Sean <br />I like your work, you are a pretty sharp pencil, I have listened to every level of audio over my 50 years on this planet, and in the end fell for Heil air motion stuff. I can tell the difference between a good DAC and a cheap circuit in a cheap CD player, I guess if you spend a bunch of money your mind simply makes it sound better, I do like all the fancy cabinets and stuff though, but most people who can afford it are to late in life to hear it. <br />I used to be able to hear the 15 Khz flyback transformer in a CRT Television but no longer can two reasons, one my age, and Two do they even exist??? I have have built amps from scratch both solid state and tube speakers also. Regards Julien Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-8182285246418625802012-11-07T02:56:02.939-08:002012-11-07T02:56:02.939-08:00Hi Sean, Thanks for publishing a robust and object...Hi Sean, Thanks for publishing a robust and objective article. There is a more sinister side to audio reviews and the direct linkage to paid-for advertising that I thinks needs to be mentioned.<br />Having worked for a firm that spent over £100k on paid-for advertising for one year - quite taken back at the cost but, I was told by management that it was just the cost of doing business. You just accept it I guess, I was only there to work on the design of a specific product and then exit at the end of my contract - no problem, I got paid well.<br />What kind of bugged me was that not one of the products reviewed that year by the magazine concerned scored less than 85%, several where even awarded outstanding product categories etc;<br />What really got me was when one nigth after a couple of wines with the reviewer he went on about the needed improvement of several of the products he'd reviewed for us that year..."such and such an amplifier really lacks the power, drive and presentation for amplifier of its price point that it's being positioned in the market at...your CD Players sound dated and lack many playback features, you guys really need to get with the rest of industry and stop using those dated xxxxxx chipsets...you guys really need to tidy up the mids in your speaker range, for thier price point they really do sound veiled and I can't help but think their distorition is high in the mids blah blah..." What took me back further was that the products he was referring to, were the ones he'd reviwed that year with glowing reviews.<br />I can't say with any certainty that this is common place, but, coupled with equipment giveaways, we bought our sales that year;<br />I was later told by our marketing guy that the industry works on a "...we'll scratch your back if you scratch ours basis...money talks and we don't like to rock the boat...at the end of the day their is enough money in it for all of us"<br />Any review I read now, I always check the magazine for paid advertising for that specific brand, if present I know I should be taking that review with a very large grain of salt...rather than just the usual subjective grain of salt...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-47324830604765973872012-11-06T03:10:31.949-08:002012-11-06T03:10:31.949-08:00Hi Sean, thanks for publishing a robust and object...Hi Sean, thanks for publishing a robust and objective article. There is a more sinister side to the Audio Press that is perhaps never discussed in public but nonetheless I think needs to mentioned. That's the link between paid advertising and favourable equipment reviews - having worked for an audio manufacturer who one year shelled out over £100k for a years advertising, not one of our equipment reviews scored less than 85% overall rating, some higher. Couple this with a few free equipment giveaways you could say that we'd bought our sales for that year. At first it seemed like something that was accepted, what bites is when the reviewer tells you after a couple of wines that they can't stand the harshness of such and such amplifier, your CD player sounds dated and your speakers need work to clean up the mids...yet none of the reviews published ever mentioned such flaws....Eng Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09329024111232182348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-15132161249743860412011-05-27T07:02:50.591-07:002011-05-27T07:02:50.591-07:00Hi Sean, good article, and props for promoting som...Hi Sean, good article, and props for promoting some kind of sense in the industry. By dissing objective measurement, the audiophile industry has thrown the door to snake oil salesmen WIDE open ($1,000 interconnects just the start), and the sheer senseless of their claims has essentially destroyed consumer trust and even understanding of the technology.<br /><br />I was hoping to read the thread you mention as being here http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/01/what-loudspeaker-specifications-are.html<br />...but it's disappeared. Update link would be appreciated (I can't eve search on it, having no keywords to use.)Rogernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-17427721830158313152011-04-22T16:00:47.796-07:002011-04-22T16:00:47.796-07:00http://emusician.com/tutorials/showdown-clubhouse-...http://emusician.com/tutorials/showdown-clubhouse-amp-software/index.htmlpeskypeskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16335545080606060608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-56564425732238304192011-04-22T14:51:22.406-07:002011-04-22T14:51:22.406-07:00i was banned from a number of guitar forums for ad...i was banned from a number of guitar forums for advancing the same ideas. it seems like most people on the guitar forums believe that sound quality always goes up with price, and in direct proportion. and they are EXTREMELY resistant to the concept of blind tests.<br /><br />one guy actually recorded identical clips with 2 Fender guitars (one was several times the price of the other) and had people try to pick the better-sounding guitar. 60% of the people chose the cheap guitar.peskypeskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16335545080606060608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-88703669480839632762011-03-27T14:00:48.912-07:002011-03-27T14:00:48.912-07:00Silver MLM:
<> I don't understand your q...Silver MLM:<br /><> I don't understand your question. But if I do understand correctly, the anwer is "no".<br />Cheers<br />SeanDr. Sean Olivehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17909033506833141612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-80449999042338671602011-03-21T10:16:24.831-07:002011-03-21T10:16:24.831-07:00Is there any legal ramifications of selling a stri...Is there any legal ramifications of selling a strictly audio product?Silver MLMhttp://www.cointree.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-11242283689215405282010-11-09T12:14:41.723-08:002010-11-09T12:14:41.723-08:00Great article! Having read reviews (or to be preci...Great article! Having read reviews (or to be precise sheer lunacy) of power cords and interconnects for $20000/m I really enjoy knowledgeable blog!<br /><br />-------------<br /><br />good brotherposthttp://www.ikariams.info/vbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-32618592483799782052010-04-06T19:28:32.317-07:002010-04-06T19:28:32.317-07:00Hi Anonymous,
Thanks for your comments. In retros...Hi Anonymous,<br /><br />Thanks for your comments. In retrospect, my choice of the word "Dishonest" in the title was perhaps too strong and sensational. Sighted evaluations have their use(I use them sometimes myself), and doing one doesn't necessarily imply willful disregard for the truth. However, people who do sighted listening tests should be aware of their limitations and potential biases, as demonstrated in this article. Unfortunately, many people in our industry routinely report results from sighted listening evaluations without regard to or acknowledgment of these biases or limitations. Some even go as far to argue that sighted tests are more accurate and less biased than blind tests. Call that whatever term you feel is most appropriate: unprofessional, lack of journalistic integrity, _________<br /><br /><br /><br />My opinion as stated in the article is that the true sound quality of a component can only be reliably measured via a blind test. Anything less than that may be a willful or unwillful distortion of the truth.Dr. Sean Olivehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17909033506833141612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-60716018644563534892010-04-06T16:10:24.750-07:002010-04-06T16:10:24.750-07:00Sean wrote: "An important question is whether...Sean wrote: "An important question is whether sighted audio product evaluations produce honest and reliable judgments of how the product truly sounds."<br />Great article overall, very revealing (no pun intended). Puzzled/troubled by use of the word "honest", which implies some form of or "dishonesty" in sited evaluations. Dishonesty implies lying or willful disregard for truth. Do you stand by this characterization? I'm sorry to say that your choice of this word seems consistent with a rather odd and unreasonable bias on the author's part; a desire to attach a more negative opinion than is called for on the sited evaluation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-31201159196908311882010-03-26T20:51:01.264-07:002010-03-26T20:51:01.264-07:00I am a software development manager with a Compute...I am a software development manager with a Computer Science and Elec. Engg degree and a audiophile for more than a decade. I am not averse to either sighted listening or blind testing. My main opinion is that the review should be done over a long period of time (say 3 or 4 months). I think it is not possible to do double-blind testing over long periods and that is why reviewers resort to sighted testing. I do not have high-priced equipment but I do think that there are some technologies and sciences that have deemed "beyond human levels of detection" without proper studies. I have found many audiophile products do make a difference, I only wonder why they cost so much.<br /><br />- kiruAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-5975213041930422262010-01-02T08:42:05.439-08:002010-01-02T08:42:05.439-08:00When an audiophile fails to recognize a difference...When an audiophile fails to recognize a difference between tweaks in a properly conducted test, it always seems that it is the test that fails, not his fallible senses.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-59763703367880133822009-11-28T07:36:05.466-08:002009-11-28T07:36:05.466-08:00From a perceptual perspective, if one feels a bett...From a perceptual perspective, if one feels a better looking set of speakers sounds better than a worse looking set, does the buyer really care???<br /><br />Similar results from experiments with wine and food colorings - white wine colored red tastes like red wine!<br />(see http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2009/2735481.htm)<br /><br />I find most amusing that the auditory assessment of a hifi system usually assesses a synthetic experience totally created at the mixing desk. So there is no clear reference to reality, but only a perception of an artificial reality compared to a notion of an imagined reality.<br /><br />Having recently been to a few live orchestral performances, I think I prefer the recording to the real thing, since the real thing only sounds really good where the conductor's head is and I can't sit there!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7172143857693272648.post-83266595771790261382009-07-21T09:24:55.333-07:002009-07-21T09:24:55.333-07:00Hi Sean,
2+2 short questions:
(1) Were the diffe...Hi Sean,<br /><br />2+2 short questions:<br /><br />(1) Were the differences for the blind listenings across the 4 loudspeakers statistically significant ?<br />(2) What suprised me were the large differences for the two speaker positions (for blind listening). Especially the more expensive HK speakers fall behind. Can you give some more detail on the speaker placements (e.g. was one of them an "extreme" one, like close to a wall)<br />(3) I cannot access the full papers through my University (UMD.edu). Would you mind sending me the papers to nico(at)cs.umd.edu. I am interested in how you controlled the order of your participant groups. <br />(4) Few years ago I was motivated myself to do such experiments and to publish online: http://hifiexperiments.blogspot.com<br />(well it turnded out to be too much work to do besides my PhD in Computer Science (and recruting enough study subjects is hard) - still the empirical component is the same and lots of the issues in the fields are the same - maybe Empirical Software Enginieering is some years ahead in convincing people to validate results with the proper studies)<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Niconicohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12170536598881128053noreply@blogger.com